Comedian and writer Jenny Hagel has good advice for aspiring writers: just write….but also…fake it ‘til you make it. I chatted with Jenny Hagel recently about the writing process, as well as her upcoming appearance at this year’s Just for Laughs comedy festival, which, like most live entertainment events in 2020, will be held online.

Jenny Hagel has a graduate degree in Writing for the Screen and Stage, and cut her comedy teeth while performing for five years with Chicago’s legendary improv troupe, The Second City. Hagel has written for many comedy TV shows over the years, and currently performs and writes for Late Night with Seth Meyers.

While she won’t get the chance to perform in Montreal for this year’s (online) Just for Laughs Festival, she has visited before, and the town left her feeling all warm and fuzzy. Tired of people kissing Montreal’s ‘Charming European’ ass, I worried that Montreal was getting smug, and asked Hagel if there was anything that miffed her about Montreal.

“My brother lived there for a little while, I used to visit him and man, what a beautiful, beautiful place. No, I probably have a different baseline for miffed, because I’ve lived in New York, so when I go to any other city, I go ‘These people’s manners are amazing!’”

My French is terrible though…I speak Spanish, I don’t speak any French. The one time I drove to Montreal, I listened to a French CD in the car the whole way up there, trying to learn phrases, to be a polite traveller, to be able to have some phrases when I got there. I’ll be honest, it was years ago, so those phrases have all left my mind. I tried at least, although I’m sure people in Montreal, when they heard my French accent for one second were like ‘No no, this does not help.’

But when I travel, I always feel the weight of the stereotype of the terrible American tourist, so I try very hard to be a one-person goodwill ambassador. I’ve tried really hard to reset that balance.”

Jenny Hagel’s upcoming Just for Laughs show with Amber Ruffin (Drunk History, The Second City, Late Night with Seth Meyers, The Amber Ruffin Show), Conversations with funny people featuring Amber Ruffin and Jenny Hagel will be live and unscripted. I asked Hagel if she had any memorable improv calamities she wanted to share.

“Oh absolutely. One time when I was touring with The Second City we were doing a show, and the whole audience was a convention of economists, and I’m sure are very interested in economics, but they were not interested in laughing. At least they were not interested in the jokes we were providing, and it was truly, truly, a gruelling and silent 90 minutes, I’ll never forget it.

I think about 45 minutes in, I thought ‘Well I took two semesters of economics in college, I’m sure I can pull out some fun economic references,’ and I really tried, and they were also not interested in those. I think I tried to pull out something about a PPF curve or something, I really was digging deep. Nothing worked. It was really a rough hour and a half of my life.”

Hagel went on to describe the format of this weekend’s Just for Laughs show, where she and Amber Ruffin ‘will be asking each other questions that they have not seen before.’

Basically we’re going to be interviewing each other. We’ve done a lot of panels in our lives where the moderators ask the two of us questions, but this one, we don’t have a moderator, so I’m going to interview Amber, she’s going to interview me, we’re going to go back and forth, so we each have a list of questions the other hasn’t seen.

We each dug up a clip of the other one performing — I don’t know if it will be embarrassing, but it will be something that the other person doesn’t know is going to be shown, so it’ll be fun. When you do a certain number of panels, over time you start to get the same questions over and over, so I think it will be fun to answer questions that we weren’t expecting.

Oh, and I’d love for people to check out The Amber Ruffin Show on Peacock if they’re able to.”

Jenny Hagel and Amber Ruffin also plan on discussing their approach to writing, and will be giving advice for aspiring writers. I asked Hagel if she could give us an overview of her advice for writers.

“I think I would just say write. I mean nobody wants to hear that, it’s not sexy advice, but it is the most real advice. The best thing you can do if you want to write is just write.

The best thing you can do when an opportunity comes along is to be prepared and have a bunch of writing to show someone. Like (if they say) ‘Hey, I saw you before, you’re great, do have any writing samples?’ If you haven’t written them it is too late, because they want them then.

Or they’ll be like ‘Hey can I see them tomorrow?’ You can’t go home and stay up all night and write a body of work, so the best thing you can do is be writing all the time.

“If you have one particular writing form you are trying to succeed in, write that as much as you can. If you are interested in a bunch of different writing forms, try them all out, and do them over and over again.

“At Late Night with Seth Meyers, I write monologue jokes, and I did not know how to do that originally. I learned how to do it by applying to late night jobs.

One time I had to do an application, I watched several monologues by the host of the show I was applying to and I transcribed them. Then I looked at them on paper and said ‘OK how do these feel?’ and then I wrote a bunch of stuff. I’m sure they were very terrible at the beginning, and a little bit less terrible later on, and slightly less terrible after that.

And over time, it’s just truly like going to the gym and doing reps. I think the best thing you can do as a writer is just keep writing, and it may not feel like it’s getting better, but it is.”

I expressed my admiration for Hagel’s old school ‘fake it ‘til you make it’ attitude, and meekly mentioned the growing pile of Idiot’s Guides I have piled on my coffee table.

“But that’s OK, as long as you’re doing it. It sounds silly, but I like to run, and I am not a world-class athlete at all, but I know that every time I run, I go a little bit farther, and my legs are a little bit stronger. You don’t want to strive to wake up one morning and be a genius, you want to be just a little bit better each time.

You also want to know that every once in a while, no matter how good you get, you’re going to write something that stinks. That happens to me every week — I turn in so many things each week that inevitably, many of them, I would say most of them, are rejected.

And your job is just to keep coming up with new things, and it’s OK — some will be great, some will stink, a lot will be somewhere in the middle, and all of that is OK.”

Hagel and I discussed how writers have to learn how to be prepared to deal with endless rejection…

“But I don’t even think of it as rejection, I think of it like…if you watch someone play baseball, you watch somebody take a bunch of swings, right? Every time a batter misses a ball, it’s not rejection, it’s just ‘OK, well that one didn’t connect. So let’s hope the next one connects.’”

On comedians/late night comedy in the COVID-19 era:

“You know that’s a great question. I think ‘comedians’ is such a big category, and there are so many different forms comedy can take, that I don’t think that there can be one answer to that.

I know for television, during the spring and summer, a lot of late night shows found ways to tape from home — do safe, remote work, and I think that’s what helped late night shows survive. Now some of those shows are starting to bring it back — like the host is in the studio, and SNL had a small audience last week.

So I think that the way comedy is surviving is the way that we are all surviving, in general in the world, which is to continue to adapt to each new phase of the pandemic, to each new challenge that the pandemic brings.”

On the challenges of doing comedy without a live audience:

“I think you just have to go more on gut, like when you’re writing a late night show that has an audience, then the audience tells you what works and what doesn’t, right? And I think without the audience, you have to go with your gut.

One thing I have really liked about that, and not to say that the pandemic is good, but I feel that an interesting outcome of it, is that I think that shows have started to gravitate a little more to their own weird, quirky personalities, because then it becomes less about writing and choosing jokes by committee.

Then it becomes more like, ‘OK, what is the culture, what is the belief set, the comedic taste of this show?’ It emerges a little bit more specifically, which is interesting to see. But I certainly wouldn’t take this over a normal world, where we all get to be together.”

I asked Hagel if she ever wrote jokes that were so outrageous or ridiculous that she never expected them to get on the air at Late Night with Seth Meyers.

“I think that happens all the time, like if you write enough jokes in a row, you stop being able to tell what’s funny to other people. It probably happens at least once a week where I’m like ‘Oh really? OK!’ and then meanwhile, there are other jokes that I think are a complete slam-dunk and my boss will be like ‘Pass,’ and I’m like ‘Really…OK.’”

“That’s absolutely one (Hagel’s ‘How to Properly Wash your hands’ skit) where I pitched it and was like ‘Well obviously this is not gonna get approved,’ and boy, to my surprise, the next thing I knew, the props department was building a bunch of different skeleton hands for me.”

On the 2020 COVID-19 “everything on Zoom” reality:

“I don’t know, I think it’s a mixed bag, I think everybody thinks it’s a mixed bag. There are some days when I think it really helps, like one day recently where I had a crummy day, and it just happened that a group of women that I’m friends with, one of them texted ‘Hey should we all Zoom tonight?’ Fifteen minutes later we were all on Zoom with a glass of wine, and it really helped.

And then there are some days where I feel like if I have to look at one more human face on a screen I’ll die. So I think it’s probably like a weird blessing and a curse to me, and to everybody — I think we’re getting both a little bit of solace and a little bit of loneliness from it at the same time.”

Conversations with funny people featuring Amber Ruffin and Jenny Hagel will be online on October 9-10, and like all of the Just For Laughs 2020 shows, it will be streamed for free.

I’ve been thinking hard about writing. Wrestling with purpose, my flying elbow ego meets an existential Walls of Jericho when considering any intention or wish to live in a world where grave injustices don’t occur systematically. I want to think and live “otherwise.” My Macho Man axe kicked. I’m tag teamed every time.

On one side of the ring, a fatalist hegemonic culture and on the other is a fragmented left. We’re constantly bombarded with news of tragedy and injustice, but rarely are we told what to do about it, or given suggestions how to think about it. The news cycle and the internet isolate and then dis-empower. It speaks directly to no one. Then we have a left that is all over the place. Common cause is beautiful, but rare. Maybe worse, many activists and sympathizers have a tunnel vision towards a particular issue.

The left needs pundits, not necessarily to lead, but to repudiate, make claims, analyze and inspire. Journalism provides us with little to nothing. I see a constant connection being made between non-hierarchical approaches to writing and an absolute need to avoid editorializing.

It is as if we should leave writing solely to those few pure journalists whose convocation it is to assemble the words and wisdom of the “dispossessed” and present it in a fact sheet or ledger. Subaltern instances should not overcompensate for unifying narratives or lack of unifying narratives, or worse, be worshiped and fetishized. No, the opposite, they should give authority to unifying narratives.

Unifying narratives are perhaps the best to fight hegemonic discourse and fatalism. They must be articulated and if not followed, at least kept in mind. What do I mean by the ambiguous and almost scary phrase unifying narratives?

I think, almost all causes, migrant justice, gender justice, environmental justice, anti-colonialism and anti-capitalism depend on a realization that issues are not just systematic and many times structural in our society and government, but that they have intersection and most importantly are alterable and can be challenged.

This is where we can move past broader fatalism, the feeling that nothing can be done and these are simply the way things are. If not united in tactics or organization, then at least being cognizant of each others’ existence and struggles is an essential first step.

In Rebels, Reds, Radicals, Ian McKay puts it simply, we can be united in our thinking and potentially in action because we think of and hope for things “otherwise” than how they are presently.

This goes well beyond any individual. As it should. The wide left needs a contemporary canon. I put forward that Montreal writers on this blog and others, Quebec writers in all languages, writers across Canada and around the world should make an effort to read one another but, more importantly, mention one another and engage in dialogue.

I am going to list off some folks I think should be read and read often:

Kai Cheng (McGill Daily pen name) or Kai Cheng Thom (tumblr name) is a poet/ activist/ social work student. Thom, all at once, is funny, emotionally powerful, and intellectually engaging. Also the writing is beautiful. The rare mix of social work, a gigantic brain and countless hours of writing poetry and performing live have given this writer the unique ability to explain and engage often complicated and marginalized subjects to any audience. Check it out.

Chelsea Vowel, lawyer and activist, tackles a long range of subjects on her blog. Her style of writing can be characterized with unparalleled precision and clarity. One must revel at her ability to, step-by-step, rip apart any issue or argument. Chelsea might be most well known for her informative and analytical role she played to correct misinformation during the Attawispskat crisis. I have also had the honour of being disparaged on her tumblr.

Up on the left coast, on the land of the Coast Salish, Harsha Walia fights the good fight in Vancouver, British Columbia. She is well known for activism in No One is Illegal, an anti-colonial migrant justice group. Her powerful opinions have made waves within leftist discourse and frequently splash poignant analysis in national media. People still share on social media videos of her articulate defence of Black Bloc tactics. She used to blog for Rabble, many of her articles are still up there. I personally follow her on Facebook (she’s also on Twitter). I get gitty when I see her in my newsfeed.

Edited by Glenn Ford, Black Agenda Report is one of my favourite place to go for news, commentary and analysis. They occasionally get big name guest commentators and tackle news stories no one else is talking about.

La Riposte and Fightback are two great publications focused on Canada and from Trotskyist Marxist perspective.

Obviously I read fellow writers on ForgetTheBox. We’re very lucky to have the multilingual Niall Clapham Ricardo. If you want to know what is going on in western Europe, or any country with a Latin derived language, he is your man.

Now I am not trying to equate the quality of writing or experience of any of these writers or websites to one another. This is just what I try to read. It is by no means exhaustive and it shouldn’t be. I’d love if people were to comment below some writers or bloggers or websites they find inspiring and interesting.